The bookmakers see the New Zealand "Taihoro" as the favourite for the 37th America's Cup duel. In the America's Cup harbour in Barcelona, the assessments sound more balanced. So let's start with the most important question: Is "Britannia" well positioned for the final, does your team Ineos Britannia have a chance of winning?
Yes, I think we can be confident. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not completely neutral either (laughs).
Let's first take a look back for comparison: How did you experience the somewhat bumpy start of "Britannia" and the subsequent impressive improvement in performance in the Louis Vuitton Cup of Challengers?
It didn't work at all at the beginning. A number of things came together. Firstly, in many areas the finish was not as it should have been. We had some areas where tolerances were not adhered to during production. There were simply things that were not as they had been developed. It was relatively difficult to change that. But we managed to do it.
It was more detail work that brought us to where we are now." Martin Fischer
To your satisfaction?
We are now at a stage where the boat corresponds very closely to what was designed and developed. It works now. That wasn't the case at the beginning. Of course, we have also changed things. But I would say: nothing earth-shattering. It's like this: our boat is very fast, but also very difficult. I have the impression that the Italians' boat was a little easier to handle than ours. It took us a little longer to get to the point where we were really good at it.
What was the difficulty?
It is more difficult to sail our boat to 100 or 95 per cent of its potential. But if you manage that, then it's very fast. And that takes a bit of time. Our performance profile is more pointed. You can think of it as a steep peak. Our peak is very high, but it also goes down very steeply on both sides. Other boats have a flatter profile, where the peak is a bit lower, but it doesn't go down quite as fast on both sides. If you're a bit off, it's not so bad.
How did you manage the increasingly strong performance of "Britannias" in very different wind and wave conditions?
It's primarily the sailors who do this. There's not much we can do about the boat. According to the regulations, you are not allowed to change the foils, for example. The number of sails is also limited. We can't have different components for different conditions. That is not allowed. That means we have to have a boat that works across a wide range of conditions from the outset. But of course you still have to limit yourself. Nobody was prepared for the conditions we had in the final on the penultimate day of the race in strong winds. I don't think any of the boats were designed for such conditions (editor's note: during the race there were winds beyond the permitted race start limit of 21 knots). I don't even know who said it - was it James Spithill or Francesco Bruni - that nobody designed a boat for those conditions.
But have you already calculated with such extremes?
Of course, we have included the possibility of sailing beyond 21 knots. It is always possible that the wind limit will be reached or exceeded during the race. The wind can be within 21 knots at the start, but come back stronger during the race, so you have to reckon with gusts of 23 or even 25 knots. Combined with waves, that was pretty close to the limit.
I wouldn't say that the New Zealanders are as superior as they were at the last Cup." Martin Fischer
But "Britannia" was always believed to be able to master this well...
The impression may be misleading... Many people have the impression that the boat is more robust because our hull has more volume. I wouldn't bet on that. We have very small foils, which don't necessarily help in the conditions. We also have a very small rudder, which doesn't necessarily help either. Although everyone has the latter.
Your foils are a little smaller than those of the "Luna Rossa", which was beaten in the final of the Louis Vuitton Cup?
Yes, and that certainly doesn't help in such conditions. That's why I'm particularly pleased that our foils are robust despite their small size. And then I'm also pleased that the sailors have got to grips with it.
Before the 37th America's Cup match against Emirates Team New Zealand, do you have a detailed impression of the Kiwi yacht "Taihoro" and a good idea of how the duel could turn out?
Of course, I can't say too much about that at the moment (smiles). They won the round robin round, which they took part in at the start of the Louis Vuitton Cup. But I wouldn't say they were as superior as they were in the 36th America's Cup in Auckland. I would estimate that they were certainly a knot faster than 'Luna Rossa' last time. And 'Luna Rossa' was about a knot faster than Ineos back then. The New Zealanders already had a huge lead.
What can't be deduced from the matches in the 37th America's Cup so far?
No, not really. Of course we get the data from all the boats. It's all public. We have analysed it, of course. The Kiwis are already fast. There's no doubt about that. But given what we've seen so far, I'd be very surprised if they were as superior as last time. I think it will be another very close race, just like against 'Luna Rossa' in the Louis Vuitton Cup final.
I think we were a bit faster than 'Luna Rossa', especially before the wind." Martin Fischer
What weakness did "Luna Rossas" have that made you win the final of the Louis Vuitton Cup?
I don't think they had any weaknesses. I think we were a bit faster, especially downwind. That pays off over such a long series. A sailing regatta is not completely deterministic. There is a large probabilistic element in the result that takes into account the probability.
That is meant how?
To illustrate this: A good Formula 1 driver can reproduce a lap time with a variation of one tenth of a second. If he drives the same lap three times in the same conditions, the times will vary by a tenth of a second. That is an enormous achievement, which also shows how good these drivers are. That's not possible in sailing. There is more variation in sailing. You can't compare lap times because the wind is different every time. But: If you let two boats sail against each other without them interfering with each other, without a cover, and you then look at the delta between the two boats each time, then you can see a variation that is considerable. I don't want to say exactly how much it is, but the variation - in percentage terms - is considerably greater than what you would see in a Formula 1 car. And the variation you see is greater than the theoretical difference in speed between two boats. Let's assume you have two boats that are theoretically five seconds apart for a race. Then the random component plus the delta with which you can reproduce something like this is significantly greater than five seconds.
The result?
That means the races will always be very close. When it comes down to it, it can always go back and forth. But over a long series, the one who is faster wins in the end, even if the delta is small. It's simply the case that in a long series with many races, the random element is averaged out. So in the end, the theoretical speed advantage does play a role. I think we had a bit of an advantage in the duel with 'Luna Rossa'. Not by much, but a tad.
How do you view the Kiwi yacht "Taihoro" on this basis?
I can't say too much about that at the moment either. We know roughly how big her foils and rudder are. You can measure that.
Are they bigger or smaller than yours?
I think the Kiwis and us are quite close to each other. I think there's less difference than between 'Luna Rossa' and us. But it's difficult to say for sure. The comparisons are made on the basis of photos. There are always uncertainties. We're talking about differences that are in the single-digit percentage range. This can be resolved on the basis of photos, but there are uncertainties. We don't know exactly how much. But that's the order of magnitude. If there is a difference, it's in the small single-digit range. And I couldn't even say which is bigger and which is smaller.
We have a lot of small aerodynamic details on the fuselage." Martin Fischer
"Britannia" looks the most aggressive of all the boats. Do you agree?
Sure, our boat looks different. Our boat has significantly more volume than the others. The 'Patriot' from American Magic, in particular, had taken things to an extreme. They had an extremely small hull, which in my opinion was just at the permitted limit. Team New Zealand also has a rather small hull. I think they also went pretty close to the limit.
And why do you walk voluminously like you?
I don't want to explain that in detail. We also went for the minimum at first, but then found another way. During development, we found another solution that seemed better to us. We then went down that route. We still think it's the right way and that we might have a small advantage on the aerodynamic side. I don't know if you can see it from the outside, but we have a lot of small aerodynamic details on the fuselage that - individually - don't make a huge difference, but add up to a few seconds. I have the impression that we have taken this a little further than our competitors.
The "Patriot", which was beaten in the Louis Vuitton Cup semi-final, is an interesting boat in more ways than one?
Yes, that was very interesting. We also investigated in this direction. For example, they had the cockpits next to each other at the front. We tested that too. We also tested the recumbent bikes, but came to the conclusion that this was not the right way to go. However, they then found this clever way of sealing the cockpits, or at least sealing them aerodynamically. We hadn't thought of that. Perhaps we would come to a different conclusion if we did it again.
But recumbent cyclists can't produce the same power as seated cyclists...
No. That is precisely the weak point. The main reason for recumbent bikes is that you can build the hull flatter and therefore have less aerodynamic resistance. The disadvantage is that recumbent bikes deliver between 12 and 15 per cent less power. I'm not telling you a secret. You know the data from cycling. They really put a lot of effort into researching what the best position is for cyclists. The recumbent bike is not the best position. That was the deciding factor for us not to go in this direction, because we believe that this energy deficit plays a role. You've also seen that in one or two races: manoeuvres and gybes in particular are very costly in terms of energy. If you're limited there... Sure, if you have a faster boat, you won't have any problems. Then you simply sail faster and win the race. But if the difference in speed is not enough to sail comfortably past the other boat, then it gets complicated.
From a technical point of view, another Cup task would appeal to me. It depends on the conditions." Martin Fischer
Would a third generation of AC75s for the 38th America's Cup be a good idea and exciting from your point of view?
I think that would be right. For designers, however, it becomes a little less interesting. But I think there's still something in it, even if I can't speak for others. But it's always like this in the America's Cup: in the end, everyone is running out of time. I think all the teams still have things up their sleeve that they wanted to try out or develop and which were cancelled because there wasn't enough time. So it would be interesting to do a third round with it. And: I also believe that the boats are pretty well suited for match racing. We have seen that: They are very close races, we experience very tactical sailing. I think they are well suited.
Would another Cup challenge appeal to you?
From a technical point of view, that would still appeal to me. We still have a few things that we couldn't do with time running out. It very much depends on future conditions.
This will be determined by the future Cup winner. We look forward to seeing which team that will be. Thank you for talking to us and we wish you a good match against the Kiwis.
A look back at the day "Britannia" won the Louis Vuitton Cup and punched her ticket for the 37th America's Cup:
