From 10 March, Martin Fischer will be competing for the most important trophy in international sailing in the 36th America's Cup match on land. The Celle-born physicist, designer and foil expert will be in action for Patrizio Bertelli's Luna Rossa Orada Pirelli team. As a grey eminence with an Einstein touch, the 58-year-old, who lives with his wife in New Caledonia in non-Cup times, is one of the co-creators of the current Cup era and is also in constant demand as a proven rules expert for the Azzurri.
Mr Fischer, the 36th America's Cup match begins on 10 March off Auckland in New Zealand. Your Luna Rossa Prada Pirelli team will be challenging the New Zealand Cup defenders. What are the chances of an Italian victory and the return of the silver jug to Europe?
I think we definitely have a chance. I would say they're 50-50. It's no longer a secret that I see our strengths particularly in lighter winds. In stronger winds, I see Team New Zealand ahead. For our part, it's a deliberately chosen wind range. We have studied hourly wind and weather data over 30 years and deliberately designed the concept in line with the probability distributions. You can't design a boat that is superior in all wind speeds. We have positioned ourselves. And we have the impression that the New Zealanders have positioned themselves slightly higher.
What the defenders and challengers had to say before the 36th America's Cup match: New Zealand's helmsman Peter Burling and "Luna Rossa" skipper Max Sirena answer the most important questions
Like the British, who lost the final of the challenger round to your team?
They were clearly slower in light winds. In more wind, they were definitely competitive. The first two races (editor's note: in the challenger final for the Prada Cup) could have turned out differently. We simply sailed better there. Our people did it perfectly.
Do the sailors still have as much influence on the design of the AC75 drafts as they used to?
They have little to do with the design itself. What we do discuss intensively with them, however, are the wind areas. We look at the statistics, prepare the data, show it to them and discuss it. A lot of feedback was received during the decision-making process for the design of the rudder. Everyone wants it to be as small as possible because it slows you down. But it has to be big enough to be able to steer the boat properly. Things like this are discussed with the sailors. We had rudders of different sizes. The feedback from the sailors helps a lot when making a decision. The same applies to foil sizes. You have to try it out.
Your team's foils are larger and more angled than those of the New Zealanders. Is this also due to the shape of the hull or do the foils follow their own philosophy?
The foils don't have much to do with the shape of the hull. There are other starting points. We don't quite know who is right yet. We'll probably know by the end of the week. There are good reasons for both solutions. In theory, it looks like the angled foil offers more advantages. However, it is more difficult to sail and susceptible to so-called ventilation. In the end, both solutions are quite close to each other. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's a philosophical question. It also has to do with the sailors and the question of what they prefer.
The differences between the surfaces of your foils and those of the New Zealanders are greater...
Yes, there are considerable differences between us and the New Zealanders. With larger foils you have a slight advantage in less wind, as they generate more power per square metre. And you crash faster with smaller foils. Basically, you have a slight advantage with larger foils in lower winds. And lower speeds still mean 28 or 30 knots, while higher speeds are more likely to be around 40 knots.
Do you think that Code Zeros will be used in the Cup duel?
I think that's rather unlikely. As soon as you take off, they brake. They are simply too big. They could help you get onto the wings. But their deployment radius is too small. Let's say we had a minimum speed of 6.5 knots for take-off - I can't say the exact value - then the Code Zero would only make sense for a very short time in an extremely small wind range. Then you already have enough wind. But then you can't furl it as quickly as you no longer need it. You can't send someone to the front at 30 knots to take it away. That's unrealistic.
You need to know: What is the relative importance of hydrodynamics and aerodynamics in the development of an AC75 Cup yacht?
I would say: 50:50. The aerodynamics are just as important as the hydrodynamics. The foils are also hugely important. If you can gain a small advantage there, you immediately gain half a knot or more in speed.
Experience has shown that the constant introduction of new Cup classes does not exactly lead to an increase in the number of participants. In this 36th Cup cycle there are only three challengers and the defending Kiwis in the game. Would you be in favour of retaining the new AC75 class for the 37th America's Cup if you had a say?
Yes, I would describe the class as a great success. Despite the new introduction, we have already seen close match racing. In the round robin preliminary round in the Prada Cup, for example. That was about seconds and metres. Like between the British and us in the last preliminary round race. The British were really good there. Before the Cup started, there were a lot of sceptics who thought that match racing wouldn't work with such fast boats. But it does work! A monohull loses much less than a cat when tacking. You can take the liberty of tacking on a wind shift or covering an opponent with the tack. This is another reason why the class is a real success. The design decision in favour of these boats was a good choice. And you have to remember that this is the first Cup with these boats. They are still a long way from being fully developed and remain exciting from a design point of view if you keep more or less the same rules.
The high-calibre design teams are also likely to have learnt something new every day over the past three years. Where have there been particularly intensive learning processes?
We have all learnt a lot. The control systems are extremely important for these boats. They decide how far you can push the foil design. There is still a lot to be done. All teams will have even better foil systems for the next Cup. This will enable better foils and therefore even higher speeds. We are certainly not at the end yet. The teams' processes didn't come to an end in this edition because they were perfect, but due to the fact that they had to start building at some point.
Because the construction processes for the foils, for example, take several months?
Building foils takes about three to four months. This limits how long you can expect your foils to last. Foils are made from forged, very high-quality and special steel. You can't buy it from the steel dealer round the corner. This type of steel is not used elsewhere, you have to search for it forever. It is cast on request, then forged. It's a lengthy process. Once you've found it, you have to buy a minimum length of 22 tonnes. You can then build quite a few things out of it. This is just to give you an idea of the complex logistics behind the process. It all takes time and has to be prepared for a long time.
Your team seems to have managed this well so far. What exactly is your role as co-design coordinator?
In the beginning, I was mainly concerned with the design strategy: Which direction should we go in, which tools do we have and which not? How do we approach the concept of the boat? At the time, I did little or no work on very specific design stories, but mainly on the methods used to develop hull surfaces and hydrofoil moulds. I then did real work on the rudders. In the second half of the project, I also worked a lot on the rules and regulations. The America's Cup has a lot to do with arguing about rules. That was my main task.
A never-ending one, right?
The rulebook has about 80 pages. There is always wording in there that is not one hundred per cent clear. The teams can ask the Rules Committee (Ed.: The Rules Committee in the 36th America's Cup is made up of Stan Honey (USA), Carlos Beltràn (ESP) and Hasso Hoffmeister from Hamburg) for interpretations. The Rules Committee anonymises the questions and distributes them to all teams. They can then make comments. The Rules Committee then issues an initial interpretation. This can be commented on again by the teams until the Rules Committee is satisfied and publishes a final interpretation. This is a very important process in which you have to invest some time. The comments can influence the Rules Committee to go in the direction you want. Or a team has seen something in another team that they think is not one hundred per cent in line with the rules. Then questions to the Rules Committee can close possible gaps. Of course, it makes a difference what you ask and how you ask it. There is always a fight for every little advantage in the America's Cup.
You are multilingual. How many languages do you speak?
Four: German, French, English and Italian.
You studied physics and hold a doctorate in geophysics...
Yes, I studied in Munich, wrote my diploma thesis at the Institute of Naval Architecture in Hamburg and did my doctorate at the Max Planck Institute for Meteorology. The latter dealt with climate research and the El Niño phenomenon. My diploma thesis was about optimisation processes for airfoils.
That already sounds like the nickname that the sailing scene gave you many years later. Do you like the name "Foil Pope"?
Rather not. I think it's exaggerated. I wasn't the first and I'm not the only one who is intensively involved with foils and attachments.
But you are very good at it. As a physicist, how did you get into boat design?
It all started at a regatta in New Caledonia. I had already drawn smaller boats, beach catamarans, back then. For this regatta, I designed an F18 together with friends. Franck Cammas (editor: later Volvo Ocean Race winner and Gitana skipper) also took part in the regatta. He had a brand new boat and we also launched our design for the first time the day before the regatta. Our French friend was super-fast with our design, overtaking Cammas twice despite bad starts. Cammas didn't like that, of course. He then invited me to Lorient and we started working together in 2001.
Their F18 Capricorn design became world champion in 2006. You have also designed the Hobie Wildcat and a number of other exciting racers. Were you interested in boats as a child?
As a child, I had a classic optimist, the usual programme. We initially lived near Stuttgart. I sailed on a dam there. When I was 14, I came back to northern Germany. I had an OK dinghy there. I then started sailing properly on an A-cat. I was older by then and had started studying in Munich. That lasted until my intermediate diploma before I went to Hamburg. I've always been interested in boats. I've been drawing boats since the early nineties.
This was followed by prominent project work with Groupama, Sodebo, Banque Populaire and your work for the frantic winners of the Groupama Sailing Team in the Volvo Ocean Race 2011/2012, before you made a big impression with Franck Cammas' Team France in the America's Cup, even with the smallest team budget. Now you are racing for the second time for Patrizio Bertelli's Italian racing team, which withdrew from the last America's Cup during the preparation phase due to anger over a last-minute change to the class rules. With your experience, do you believe that "normal sailors" will benefit from the developments in the America's Cup?
I don't believe that normal sailors will be travelling with electronically controlled systems any time soon. The cost is too high for relatively small winnings. However, I do see influences with regard to other high-calibre regatta classes such as the Imocas and Ultimes. That design methods that we have now developed in the America's Cup will be applied to such boats. Especially when using simulators. The New Zealanders demonstrated in Bermuda (ed.: in the 35th America's Cup) what all the big teams are using today: The use of automatic optimisation algorithms is a major topic that is becoming more and more important. In other words, the pure mathematical development of shapes. This will be used in more and more areas.
Can you explain this with an example?
Profile shapes for foils, for example, are optimised in this way. Mathematical algorithms are used to try it out. To develop a profile, the computer tests 15,000 to 30,000 profiles. You can't do that by hand in 100 years. You'll die before then. And the profiles that come out are so good that you can't do it by hand.
However, in addition to their commitments on the big Cup stage, they also continue to have fun on a smaller scale. Keyword: Regnoc...
(Laughs) Yes, that's funny! It's about an idea from Frank Schönfeldt from Hamburg to make the almost 70-year-old Conger dinghy fly with foils. I drew the foils, looked at how big the centreboard had to be and drew up the concept for the hull appendages. And to start with, I first looked at whether it was even possible to make the Conger fly.
And?
I think it is possible. You need a good wind. Five wind forces at least. If we're allowed to tow the boat, it's possible with less. Once the conger gets on the foils, it's no longer a problem. I think we need eleven or twelve knots of boat speed to take off.
The sailmaker, singer and regatta sailor Schönfeldt is currently collecting money for the Conger conversion to a foiling rocket with many fan campaigns. The campaign is now also being supported by companies from the water sports industry. At the beginning of March, more than half of the targeted 25,000 euros had already been raised. After the America's Cup could be before the Conger flight...
I'm looking forward to it! Frank Schönfeldt is doing a really good job.
Tatjana Pokorny
Sports reporter
